Obama vs. Detroit

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Permalink Reply by Miranda on April 2, 2009 at 1:17pm

When you put your stake in a company or a union, you are taking a risk.
With a risk sometimes it is a good thing and you get the reap the rewards of that risk, as have all retirees for the last twenty years who did not have to worry about any of this while the companies were falling further and further into unsustainable waters.
With a risk sometimes it goes very very badly. Just ask anyone with a 401K or MM account tied to the NYSE. Sometimes in a risk in fact, you lose everything.
Luckily for the retirees, there are contracts, and if the auto co. goes into bankruptcy, they can hang on to some of the things that would otherwise be lost if the doors closed forever.
They have it better than those with a small 401K currently near negative numbers.
Did the people who put money into retirement funds less deserving of their money than the auto worker retirees? No, I don't think so. No one is fighting for the retiree's who have to go back to work right now because there is no money left after the last year of the Dow Jones plumenting numbers.

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Permalink Reply by J M A on April 3, 2009 at 10:06am

Many GM employees had cottages in this area. They will soon be selling or have their places up for sale already. Tourism will drop because they have less spending money

They are already feeling that very hard down here in Florida

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Permalink Reply by masonco on April 3, 2009 at 5:00pm

I can see that. There was a whole group of former Grand Rapids GM employees that owned condos down in Florida. There was another group of Grand Rapids retirees that owned property in trailer parks. They used to have get togethers down there in January. Most are holding on tight, trying to sell off 2nd homes and economize wherever they can since the Grand Rapids GM plant closed (or closing) and they are unemployed.

Sadly that will close a lot of small pattern making and part making plants in MI too. Those plants will lose money that is owed them when GM goes bankrupt.

Then more stores will have to shut down because no one is shopping. That will lead to more unemployed.

It is a disastrous downward spiral with many more to lose their jobs in Grand Rapids area since GM plant is no longer employing people.

They all indirectly depend on the money GM employees and retirees had to spend. Many who say GM workers and retirees have too much money will soon find out it will affect their pocketbook too.

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Permalink Reply by Miranda on April 2, 2009 at 1:08pm

The bankruptcy judges would not have just told the retirees to go get a job. It doesn't work that way. They would surely have had benefit reductions, but would not have lost entirely their insurance and pensions. Now I can not say that about the current workers nor the union execs or comp execs.
Bankruptcy works out payment plans basically. Chapter 11 bankruptcy anyways. Over time, debts are reduced and paid. With stipulations of executive pay and strings to captial purchases. The judges first priority in a bankruptcy court are the contracts with former and current workers and vendors.
I have been through a business chapter 11. It is not fun, but neither is completely disolving. In the end though, you come out with a clean slate. With real sustainable contracts. With real goals. It is the best thing to do when in this type of situation.

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Permalink Reply by masonco on April 3, 2009 at 6:34am

Please show where Delphi retirees do not suffer as a result of bankruptcy. This is not just a situation of wall street losses. They were guaranteed these benefits for lifetime. They were misled. Most of them were of a generation that trusts that promises will be kept.

Try telling these 80 year olds they were LIED TO after working all those years in noisy, dusty, 120 degree (temperatures) factories. They worked hard all their lives for nothing.The heartbreak might get rid of a lot of them anyway as they quickly give up and die. Others will be "eliminated because they can no longer afford their medications & health care. My mother said she'd rather die than be a burden. Many of them are of that mindset.

Why does no one care about these people who suffered so much? Just dump them on the train to the desert camp and leave them there. The fate is the same in their eyes. They suffered the world wars, they suffered the great depression and kept bouncing back. They are the ones being punished now but then again one party governments in other countries eliminated those who were a burden or disagreed with their spending habits, so why are we surprised at this possibility? Do deserve to be "eliminated" & suffer because they can no longer support the government.

I know I've lost everything. It's ok. Now all born after 1950 must work until age 70 to collect full social security anyway. Then I'll just expect the government to support me the rest of my life. Meanwhile, I've no intentions of saving for retirement. I look at how my hard working GM father who held 2 jobs, will be stabbed in the back for working so hard.

I learned from the Obama administration already. Do not save for the future. Just spend spend spend. those who save will lose it anyway.

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Permalink Reply by masonco on April 3, 2009 at 5:08pm

Yes and look at what it got for all those who did go without and saved. I'm listening to the government teaching here. Look at the stimulus bill and the trillions of $ wasted there.

If I or my spouse has to go to nursing home, we pay for the care out of our pocket until we have $2000 in total assets. THEN we can receive Medicaid.

The system is set to discourage investing. I have several friends who invested in 401k. Their money is gone because their company went bankrupt. Those investments went towards company debts...IF there is anything left, then they might get a portion (pennies on hundreds of dollars) of their investments back.

Where is the encouragement to save? Oh don't forget we cannot collect full social security benefits until age 68 or 70.

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Permalink Reply by Lisa O'Brien on April 3, 2009 at 5:17pm

The 401K system is not designed to be tied to your employer. The employee takes a certain % of pretax money and invests it in the stock market and this is handled by a 3rd party, mine is Vanguard. I tell vanguard how I want my money invested, high risk, low risk. Generally employers match a %.

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Permalink Reply by Miranda on April 4, 2009 at 12:07pm

But we all have also known for many many many years that this was the biggest ponsey scheme in the world. We have all known for years and years that something needed to be done if we wanted this wonderful think called Social Security to actually stay viable. I have known since my very first pay check that I will likely not have social security at all when I reach the age, because it will be bankrupt.
Does anyone know what we are guaranteed LEGALLY from all the money we put into social security? Anyone? I don't want to give it away untilyou guess.



Legally, congress does not have to give us anything.

What happend to the money we all paid in? Well, really, we are not getting back simply what we put in. We will get back much much more than we ever put in. The math is not there, it just does not add up.
The baby boom, sure you can blame it, and Congress and every congress since FDR, and every president since FDR, including FDR.
The fact of the matter is, when you depend on government for ANYTHING, social security, medicare, or some crazy nationalized (free, hahahaha) healthcare, you take the control away from yourself.
That is our problem.
Americans need to take responsiblity for themselves.
Americans need to stop trusting that government can take care of them or anything for that matter.
Americans need to understand government is not the answer!

Permalink Reply by J M A on April 3, 2009 at 10:18am

IMO, we need to find a way to protect our retirees for sure and provide basic health care for all. But at the sme time, I do not believe it can be achieved by forcing everyone to accept only basic health care at the cost of getting it to those who do not have it. Why should someone who has EARNED insurance that provides preventitive care have to settle for walk in clinics because of those who have no health care? England is seeing this now as they wealthy are paying quality doctors while everyone else vsits the "clinic". I do not want us to lose our quality physicians here in America in exchange for "clinics for all" WHen soon those who can afford it fly to Germany for real care and we lose all of our fine physicians.

Same with retirement, we cannot give everyone the basics in exchange for those who have earned it getting what they earned the extravagent retirement. SO while yes, we need to protect everyone, but at the same time allow capitalism to flourish. There are more jobs in resort lifestyles nation wide than the omnibus can provide.

And as for the generations that wil need to fund this, it will be interesting, I work with/around many first time voters, a big chunk of which were Obama supporters. They like progressivness, hate unions, and believe it is up to the individual to do for one's self. So I envision a future in which some of what you support wins out and some of what I support comes out. I do not know if we will see a new political party, new ideologies of the existing ones or what. But the coming generation provides an interesting mix of conservtisim and liberalsim. They love trees and hate union ideals. Weird....

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Permalink Reply by J M A on April 3, 2009 at 10:27am

If the budget reflects a strong commitment to education, infant and children's health and aging, you can see where their priorities lie

I agree, unfortunately, neither party sees it this way. Especially on the education. I truly believe both of our parties lack in the area of education. Republicans want to make it a business and use competition to drive it while Democrats speak a decent game on education but rarely do little more than it takes to appease the teachers unions and continue to recieve votes and donations. The lottery is the biggest educational hoax I have ever seen. In all my years, the biggest positives I have seen for education are private donors and casinos (via donations). It is sad, America truly undervalues educaion.

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Permalink Reply by Miranda on April 4, 2009 at 12:14pm

I promise you I understand.
My husband has a very serious hip problem. AVN, for anyone who cares. Basically his hip bones are dead. He is only 35, and his hip bones are dead. He can have a hip replacement, but in a man so young, it will only last about 10 years. So then he can have another one. Another hip replacement at 45. Then that is it. It is not recommended to have more than two hip replacements, so by the time he is 55, he could basically be up a creek. So he is holding off as long as he can.
I tell you this only because I understand the plight of those who have to work harder, with more pain. I tell you this because, though I am not the one with a disability, as my husband is, I also deal with this on a daily basis. Have you ever seen a 35 year old man who can not run with his two year old son, who can not pick up his four year old daughter, because if he does it may hurt him so badly that he won't be able to get out of bed in the morning to do the work he hates, but has to do because it is the only thing his body will allow at the moment.
With all that said, I am so strongly against any kind of Universal Healthcare.
To that I say, I think I will start a thread on this issue alone, so it does not get lost, because it is a very important and very real issue in the country today. It is an issue that should be debated!

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Permalink Reply by masonco on March 31, 2009 at 6:59pm

This is true. Remember the government encouraged Yugo car GM made? That did not last long because no one would buy them. Most small econo cars were not safe before they discovered new safety techniques.

However I still do not trust the safety of the small "econo" cars. Try driving them through mud or snow.

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